Well here it is people, another biggie. Hopefully this will stimulate some discussion amoung us.
What are your thoughts relating to this?
Is it time for this issue to be brought out into the public spotlight and debated/discussed/worked through? What are our congregations view towards drinking alcohol?
Should we change our position as a church? Should we decide as a denomination to be more 'biblical' when it comes to alcohol consumption? Feed me some points of view...
Which view should we hold:
1. Prohibitionsist and teach that all 'drinking' is a sin and that alcohol is an 'evil'?
2. Abstentionist and teach that drinking is not sinful but christians should avoid it out of Love for others and a desire not to cause anyone to stumble, is this 100% biblical?
3. Moderationists and teach that drinking alcohol is not a sin and that each person must let christian concience guide them without judging others, for 'wine' is neutral and can be used in both good and bad ways.
If i was to recieve an honest response from people in our church across Australia, i would bet (if is was a betting man) that we would see and average of at least 30-35% or 1/3 of our people have consumed alcohol of some sort in the past 12 months. Is that a fair call? what do you think the figure would be?
So what does this mean for us? How do we respond to this issue? Does it mean these people are no longer 'holiness' people?
I am interested in some honest and up front discussion here....anyone?
look forward to your responses.
Peace
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Ok post number 2: (see reference to Holiness for my first try at this blogging thing).
ReplyDeleteA biggie, or is it?
30 -35% of Nazarenes having a drink? I'm not sure, but I wouldn't know. Is that an indictment on a special rule of the church, or on those individuals. the statement is clear: Nazarenes don't consume alcohol (although I did have some cough medicine the other day).
so I get offended at Nazarenes thinking they can promote their church and a discordant lifestyle. Please don't do that!
can I have a drink? Sure.
Will it keep me out of heaven? Probably not.
Do I want to? Will it enhance my witness?
No and I don't think so.
Alcohol is a massive and growing issue for Australians - especially the young. Would appropriate consumption be a good testimony for them. Maybe. But would it help them to not drink if it is a problem? I don't think so.
I can say no to alcohol because I don't want to drink (my g-father was alcoholic; destroyed his family). I am happy with the witness I offer to others in this area of my life. I do not feel it doesn't make me one of the boys. It is not about the drink, but about caring and sharing in the real things of life.
That's the biggie.
Cheers
hey tim,
ReplyDeleteman i hope you are enjoying this blogging stuff, cause i am enjoying your input, keep it up!
There are huge alcohol issues in my own family and so i understand exactly how EXCESSIVE alcohol consumption can destroy families, and i agree with you on that one.
There are many things we could talk about that show many to be living a 'discordant' lifestyle in the church that does evoke such massive debate and controversy, and many things in the name of 'holiness' done by 'enitirely sanctified' people, i will leave these for another post :o)
I guess we need to honestly deal with the fact that many in our congregations may well be consuming alcohol and so i ask the question, what do we do with this issue? and why dont we know how many in our congregation are drinking?
Do we kick em out for it? do we expose their 'secret'? how do we respond? Does the special rule need to be changed?
thoughts people...
Ok, here goes (deep breath!)...
ReplyDeleteTo me the rule about 'not drinking' isn't about alcohol at all. Its about not allowing people to make up their own minds.
Why does the Church persist in thinking its our job to tell people how to live their lives? I see no evidence for this in Jesus teachings. I believe that Jesus was about showing people a better way to live, not dictating to them the rules for joining his "club".
I can't stand the rule about drinking. I can't stand the fact that this is the thing that defines our church as we head into the next century. I can't stand the fact that our churches loose good people every year because they feel like they can't join our denomination because they drink.
We're not the alcohol police, we're the church.
Ok, I'll be over in the corner having a time out now.
Hey copland.
ReplyDeleteIs temperance really the thing that defines us in the 21st century? Is it that big a deal?
Of course people can make up their own minds on the issue - we are not talking about sin, but lifestyle preference. Why would someone who wants to keep drinking sign up with a church group that has made a stand to leave alcohol alone? We are not alone on this matter; many christian groups have made such a stand.
Is it a case of the church trying to tell people how to live their lives, or just giving an option for a holy lifestyle. Remember, our denominational stand was not created in a void, but in a context of ministry to people for whom drinking was an issue. How much is too much?
Don't start and the question is moot.
I am currently working with a brand new Christian. Never said a word about alcohol and he has recognised he needs to give it up and feels freedom having done so. That won't be everyone's testimony, and neither do I expect it to be - but it is what it is. God spoke and he listened. That's all I expect of God's people.
bottoms up.
great some discussion, finally! :)
ReplyDeletesome good points copland and tim.
"...our denominational stand was not created in a void, but in a context of ministry to people for whom drinking was an issue."
Is this the current reality that our church in Australia is in at the moment? If the majority of our churches had a minstry working in the slums and/or streets of our towns, dealing with mainly alcohol related issues day in day out in the same way our church started out, i would most definatly agree that it is at the 'very heart' of our mission as a church to stay alcohol free.
I would say that being alcohol free and living a holy lifestyle are not on equal ground. The historical church has had many, many 'Holy' people who have lived holy lives and also consumed alcohol, i think we are on very shaky ground if we want to equate living a holy life with NOT drinking alcohol.
In my opinion, the point is not 'alcohol' in itself, as copland pointed out, but a long tradition in the church of the Nazarene (especially in Australia) of 'controlling' and 'policing' morality and 'holiness' if this makes sense, for example we were not allowed to goto movies, we were not allowed to dance, we were not allowed to wear make-up (for guys this is a good thing) we were not allowed to wear wedding rings the list could go on, just because we 'reframe' our position on alcohol does not mean our church will turn into a bar and be full of drunkard alcoholics.
If people are living a Holy life where God has TRULY done a work in their/our heart and life, then shouldn't they have the fruits of the sprit? self-control, patience, etc etc?
I agree tim, the man's testimony about drinking is a great one and a perfect example of how if this can/is/could be an issue for someone and they are seriously trying to listen to the Spirit they should listen and follow where they feel God is leading them and for some that will mean no alcohol consumption and for others it will not mean that, but maybe gossip, lying, excessive eating, swearing etc.
In my opinion, the reason why alot of people want to join the church of the nazarene is because the message of holiness and our wesleyan theology is a great message for our lives (the best one i feel). In my mind problems come when people feel so great about the message and theological understanding and freedom from sin, but are then not able to join the church (officially at least) because the church has a position which is unbiblical and seeks to 'morally police' people of what the Spirit of God should already be doing in the life of His people who are seeking to live a holy life devoted to Jesus.
I am not advocating we then change the 'rules' and then RECCOMEND everyone drink alcohol, in fact, we could still recommend as a church that people choose to avoid alocohol while still allowing people the option to drink it in moderation if they wish to, and allow people to still be 'entirely sanctified' even though they may occasional drink the 'devils brew'...LOL
Is it such a big deal, i say yes, it is something we need to discuss (as we are doing) as a denomination and in my opinion, move to a more biblical position. I do not like when people/leadership simply write it off as a 'non-issue' this is poor leadership, and personally what is the harm in us as a people working through and discussing the issues we face as a church, as brother and sisiters we should be able to discuss/argue/dialogue and then when its all finsihed head out to dinner together and allow Jesus to still be lord of us and still unite us as his people....i am fearful when 'the people' are nto allowed to have a voice.....
I am done now....anyone for dinner? :)
Great discussion guys!
anyone else have something to say? come on throw your hat in the ring!
Love and peace to each out there!
Tim,
ReplyDeleteThe one question that I have to ask is, what would have happened had your new convert NOT decided that he no longer wanted to drink?
From my experience he would not have joined the Church of the Nazarene and in few months would have moved on to a more accepting denomination.
Regarding another comment you made, "We are not alone on this matter; many christian groups have made such a stand"... really? Apart from us and the Salvos I do not know of any other denominations that have a policy of enforced abstinence. I'd love to know if there are others.
Finally, yes, I do believe that it is the thing that defines us. Because it is the thing that people struggle with when they consider joining our denomination. Should it be the thing that defines us, well no. But in my experience it is, and this is a sad comment on our church today.
I think it does scare people away for a degree. My wife is still not a member of the church of the Nazarene and what the manual says about the alcohol. It says: from 34.5 our position and practice is abstinence rather than moderation. She may have a drink of wine with dinner 3-4 times a year at say a wedding or Christmas. I wholeheartedly respect her choice to not be a member. She doesn't feel like she can say in membership she agrees with everything the manual states. But the interesting thing is she has been told by various elders that if that is the only thing holding her back from membership it shouldn't. We are sending conflicting messages.
ReplyDeleteAt this point of Jo not being a member has not impacted her attendance at our church greatly. But in the future if she wants to take more a role as a Sunday School teacher or be on the board she would not be allowed. which I think would be a detriment to her ministry.
I think context plays a role as well. When we visit the inlaws and go to church they serve communion when there is a pastor present and it is red wine. The manual says I should abstain from communion because of the fact it was wine. But I have been served creaming soda for communion at a Nazarene church which is more offensive to God to be used in the sacrament?
I understand we should be careful to not dissolve where we come from. We also have a strong ministry to people who have become addicted to alcohol over the years.
To use the dancing thing as a example when I became a member it was outlawed not to even be used in P.E classes and we were to pull our children out of such classes. The rule changed to the current rule in around 93. There were already Nazarenes on my district that were going to nightclubs and when the rule changed nothing practically happened. I don't think it caused a surge of Nazarenes into dancing. I am not sure if the rule changed on this it would cause a surge of Nazarenes into drinking. It would make us more open and exclusive to people who wished to join our community.
Like all things I ultimately think it will change eventually as the generations change. I think as we see in the future if the General Church changes to a global bar of the house the influence of Eurasia and the votes of the South American regions come into play it might shift in the next 10yrs.
Time will tell.
Hey cam, some great points bro.
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting mate.
I personally think it is time to begin to make that shift. While is was in brisbane attending a nazarene church an awesome family with 2 kids and a tremondous growing kids ministry were not allowed to become memebrs and take an 'official' role because they came form a european background and drank wine occsaional.
This was pointed out to them as a non-issue and that they should simply 'give it up' as it was a sin in there life. To cut the story short, they left the nazarene church having felt like they were 'doing the wrong thing' and consequently the entire kids ministry fell to the ground and was never the same, in fact it folded after them leaving, this was because the had such a great ministry to the parents and the kids. This is one story of many i personally could tell and many that have occured in my short 12 years in the Nazarene church. Will it shift cameron? not if leadership continues to call it a 'non-issue' and close there eyes to the current situation in our church and feel there is no dialogue or discussion to be had.
I guess my big issue is as a pastor i am 'condemn' memebers for drinking, but turn a blind eye to their overeating and to MANY other indulgences that have huge social consequences?
See my dilemma? Sure, one could say i should point these 'other' issues out as well, this may well be true, but pointing it out certainly doesn't hinder them form being a member now does it?
any thoughts? I am so glad we are having tis discussion, thanks Tim, Copland, and Cam you guys are awesome, anyone else who may be watching wish to join the discussion?
I don't really have anything else to add to the current discussion, except to say that I agree with Caine that its about time we at least TALKED about the drinking thing...
ReplyDeleteMaybe we should change the blog to 'Engaging the Booze'?
It's interesting that you mention the overeating problem. I did see it as one of those "leaked" resolutions. It's funny that those are leaked but the NYI ones are easily downloadable and we are being encouraged to check them out and discuss them.
ReplyDeleteI think the dialogue is there after meeting the eurasian crew at 3rd wave. I am not sure if it gets through to Kansas city though.
As I said it is a waiting game but can we wait that long?
Engaging the booze! LOL, ha! yeah well who knows could be an option :)
ReplyDeleteWhat does the bible say about drinking or NOT drinking?
no thoughts or comments anyone?
ReplyDeleteSome very interesting comments here. However, from my point of view, I think we miss the point of our mission as both pastors and as a church. We are here to call and encourage people to come into the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Sin comes in a million different shapes and forms. Self-rightousness is as sinful as drunkeness. Gossip is no better than lying, and unforgiveness is as bad as being judgemental.
ReplyDeleteChrist came to save sinners .... and was he not called one who drank with sinners and ate with publicans? Interesting how Christ never actually mentioned abstanance of alchohol. Anyone who claims that wine did not have as much alchohol then as it does today, needs to do some research. The disciples were said to be drunk on the day of Pentecost .... on grape juice?? Paul tells Timothy to have some wine for his stomach... really terrific medicinal grape juice not.
Noah, Lot, and many other Old Testament figures not only drank wine .... they "made" the stuff and "got drunk" on it!
The reason I am a part of the Church of the Nazarene, is it's theology, not its special rules. As a pastor, I am obligated to obey the rules, however, I don't make an issue when speaking to others, of those rules that I feel contradict or supercede Scripture.
I have to agree with Caine. I think we have many Nazarenes who have "cooking wine" in the grocery cupboards.... mmmm
But so what. I'm not their judge. If I find them drunk, perhaps I will need to speak to them, as that is considered sin in Scripture. But then, am I just as prepared to speak to them about other sinful issues? As Jesus said, he who has no sin, cast the first stone. If you have any Nazarene Christians in your church who are so sanctified that they never do anything even slightly wrong ... praise God. You are blessed, because I don't think there are any .... at least not alive.
If you people are married or have kids, or are in the work place, or live in a community .... then there are going to be relational issues that they are going to have to deal with from time to time. Why ... because we have all inherited the sinful nature. So we are sanctified .... I am so glad that the church has finally realized that to be sanctified is not the end of the road, but the beginning. It's not a case of having arrived, but rather, having started.
Well that's my 2 cents worth.
Hey trev! and a good 2 cents worth it is!
ReplyDeleteThanks for joining in bro...
I think you are right in what you are saying.
I am not advocating we open the flood gates and promote drinking, i am however honest enough to acknowledge that our people do and will drink.
I am simple asking the hard questions and asking if we should make the shift to a more biblicl position? I also believe it is not a simple question and issues to answer without one side or the other feeling strongly about it.
Peace trev, lets keep up the discussions, i value you your input.
I'm probably a bit late on this blog, but here goes anyway...
ReplyDeleteI can appreciate the history and intent of this rule (and most of the other rules), but it presents 2 problems. First, these sorts of rules tend to focus more on excluding negative behaviour as the touchstone of holiness rather than focusing on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit(clearly I can abstain from alcohol, dancing, having fun - lol - but still not show any love or have Jesus in my heart). It goes about holines from the wrong end.
Secondly,as Copland says, it doesn't allow individuals to excercise their own discretion or decisions. If I am with someone who has drinking issues and has made the decision to abstain, then I don't drink around them. When around others (generally younger people) who may have drinking issues but have not adverted to it yet, I believe that modelling responsible drinking is sometimes a more realistic and credible way of adreesing their issues than an "I don't drink, neither should you" approach. Obviously, how this is done depends on the person and the situation and this appears to have been the intent of the rule (not causing your brother/sister to stumble) but the inflexible application of the rule can only be explained on the basis that the rule-makers did not trust individual members to possess sufficient judgment to know when and where to abstain or when to drink in moderation.
similar to Trevor, I was drawn to the Church of the Nazarene because of its holiness theology not by its legilsation and rules which purport to be hard-and-fast ways to be holy. As may be gathered from this blog, I drink in moderation on occasion and I do not feel confliected despite the Manual. If this gets me kicked off a Board somewhere, then so be it...
If you count the people who have a drink with a celbratory meal, at Christmas, etc. I would be surprised if it wasn't more than 30-35%, but ultimately it doesn't matter to me whether it is 1% or 90%, it is an issue that should be re-addressed.
never too late bro!
ReplyDeleteGlad you posted! Som good points there and many i agree with.
Keep the comments coming mate.